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Deplatforming, Antisemitism, Recapping Michael's Debate, and More!

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Recap: Michael's Debate with Democratic Capitalist

Debate with advocate of "Democratic capitalism" (New Deal democratic policies)
Opponent's central claims: Pre-New Deal era was laissez-faire capitalism vs. socialism, Roosevelt took middle path, biggest economic boom followed, recent deregulation choked off that prosperity, Constitution guarantees equality of opportunity
Michael's opening response challenged these claims systematically
Key dispute: opponent conflated nature's requirements with government coercion

Michael explained: "He was confusing metaphysical facts with choices humans made. Then he said, well, because of democracy, because I have the right to vote that it's, it's not coercion. And I pointed out, well, if me and five of my friends are at a restaurant and we vote to that, you're gonna pay for our dinner, that's democracy. He said, no, that's different."

The fundamental issue was concept dropping and floating abstractions. Michael characterized the challenge: "When debating with someone with a completely different vocabulary and worldview, it became a bit of a challenge. But I think I handled it well."

Mark summarized the problem: "The guy was evading, confronting the paradoxes in his own thinking... once somebody starts getting clout and reputation with one type of philosophy, they're very resistant to changing."

Government Roads Example

Persephone paraphrased the opponent's argument about government giving freedom to drive on the right side of the road by taking away freedom to drive on the left side.

Michael challenged the coercion aspect: "The fact that I use the roads means that I should have to pay for them. Even though I'm compelled to use the road outside my house. I don't have a choice. People were compelled to fund it and now you're gonna compel me to pay for it, whether I use it or not."

John Cena Career Ending Dispute

Razzie Ginsburg and Michael's ongoing private dispute about John Cena's career ending
Michael's position: John Cena's persona is "never give up," but he tapped out in a sleeper hold in his final match with Gunther, destroying his entire persona
Michael argued they should have had him pass out instead to maintain the "never give up" character while still losing

Ben Shapiro Debate

Razzie defended Ben Shapiro for supporting Israel
Michael's critique: Shapiro also supports religious notions, MAGA, Trump

Mark noted: "Ben Shapiro was talking, frankly, with your, on Brooke, and that's when he said he liked her economic ideas. He differed with her morally, uh, on the moral origins."

Michael responded: "Her economic ideas are rooted in her moral ideas... He's a big supporter of MAGA, big supporter of religious stuff... he's wrong."

Deplatforming Effectiveness Debate

Discussion of whether deplatforming strengthens those being deplatformed
Examples: Nick Fuentes, Trump, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens all gained larger followings after deplatforming
Article's proposed solution: these ideas need to be debated openly rather than suppressed

Mark questioned: "Do you think deplatforming people works? ... there's a lot of talk going around now about how deplatforming actually made the reputations of the very people they were trying to deplatform."

Michael's nuanced position: "I don't think the deplatforming works if what you mean by work is shuts them down. That doesn't mean I think that people should platform them either... I'm not gonna recommend that people platform these guys. I personally would not."

Michael characterized the fundamental problem: "I read a book, great book on bullshit, and the hallmark of bullshit isn't necessarily lying. It's that the person that's doing it is unconcerned with the truth. They just don't care one way or the other."

He illustrated with current examples: "When the economy was going slowly, they fired the person that released the numbers, they claim it's fake news, or it's not Trump's fault, it's Biden's fault. But today they come out with good numbers, and now Trump is a hero."

Mark contrasted this with past politicians: "Even Bill Clinton, when Bill Clinton got exposed for lying, he felt the need to come out and admit it and say, I'm sorry, I did have a sexual relationship with that woman. Indeed it was wrong, blah, blah, blah. These people don't even have that."

Rush Limbaugh and Political Echo Chambers

Michael traced current political environment back to Rush Limbaugh
Limbaugh initially confirmed conservative principles, then betrayed them by supporting Trump

Michael explained: "I think a lot of this started with Rush Limbaugh... I used to like him, and I used to listen to him. Why? Because he was confirming what I like to hear. So I didn't recognize when he was straying. It took, eventually I did, but it took some time. But now, you know, once Rush started supporting Trump, which was clearly a candidate that was against the things that Rush had been preaching for the previous, you know, 25, 30 years, it was clear that he was being a dishonest broker."

Michael continued: "From them it's gotten worse. Now, you know, now it's Tucker Carlson. Now they're, it's just becoming more and more unhinged and people like to hear that stuff. They'd like to be confirmed in their bias and they can believe it."

315,000 Georgia Ballots Without Signatures

Legitimate votes lacking poll worker signatures due to procedural mistake
MAGAosphere claiming it as proof of stolen election
Giuliani promoting it despite courts requiring actual evidence

Michael challenged: "Giuliani should sue. Giuliani should go into court and say what he says on X, right? Because in the past, what these MAGA freaks have done is gone into court and not say what they were saying to the public. Because in court there's actually consequence for what you're saying... It's a different story when you're in court than when you're lying to your idiotic gullible marks."

Lobbying Context and AIPAC

Claim circulating that AIPAC (Jewish lobby) controls Washington
Reality: AIPAC spent $100 million lobbying
China spent $460 million, Japan $410 million, Big Pharma $387 million, Saudi Arabia $310 million, Qatar $256 million

Mark emphasized the importance of context: "You always have to ask a question, Michael, to provide context in comparison to what or whom. And once you start throwing the Jewish lobby into the context of other foreign state lobbyists out there, you get a very, very different picture of things... Yet somehow it's the Jewish lobby that spent half or a quarter of what these foreign lobbyists spent. That is the most influential lobby in Washington. Please, I mean, this stuff, you could Google this shit, Michael, and it's like, yet this crap still gets passed off on social media as if it's fact."

Antisemitism and Anti-Zionism

Discussion of Adam Media (England-based account spending time attacking Jews)
Candace Owens repeating canard about Jews being responsible for slave trade
Tucker Carlson, Dave Smith, Scott Horton, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Pat Buchanan all promoting antisemitic narratives
None are Islamists, contradicting "it's just Muslims" explanation

Michael raised the challenge: "There are people that say, well, it's because Muslims are growing, there's more Muslim population... Candace Owens is not an Islamist. Right? Nor is Tucker Carlson, nor is Dave Smith, nor is Scott Horton... Marjorie Taylor Greene is another one, not an Islamist... going back Pat Buchanan, not an Islamist."

Mark noted religious conservative connections: "They find a comradery with those types of people because they are religious, conservative, irrationalists. And so they will find as much a home with them as they're finding with say, Orthodox Christians."

Sheldon Richmond as Counter-Example

Michael cited friend Sheldon Richmond as example of legitimate Israel criticism
Richmond very critical of Israel but also very critical of antisemitic remarks
Demonstrates difference between honest criticism and Jew hatred

Michael explained: "Whether we agree with him or not on his criticisms of Israel, they're honest and they're not based on Jew hatred, but there are people, as we've talked about in the past who couch their Jew hatred as criticism of Israel, and it makes it sometimes difficult to detect what is actually going on."

Detecting Antisemitism Through Double Standards

Mark's test: applying standards to Israel that aren't applied to Arab states indicates antisemitism
Jordan banned Jewish life, didn't allow Jews to worship at Western Wall for 19 years when controlling West Bank
Israel allows Muslims to worship at Al-Aqsa Mosque
Ignoring apartheid nature of Gaza while claiming Israel is apartheid
Claiming Israel is "white settler movement" when it's one of most ethnically diverse states

Mark outlined the test: "When you ignore the apartheid nature of, of the Arab states that literally banned Jewish life from their states, you cannot be a Jew and live in Jordan, Michael. And when Jordan had control of the West Bank for 19 years, they did not allow Jews to worship at their most sacred site, at the Western Wall... since Israel has controlled the holy sites in that area, of course they allow Muslims to worship at the Al-Aqsa Mosque, but it would be the equivalent of them not allowing the Muslims to worship at the Al-Aqsa Mosque... When you ignore the apartheid nature of Gaza, for example, and instead place that on Israel, you are certainly representing a double standard and are probably antisemitic."

Five Turning Points in MAGA Civil War

Since Ben Shapiro's speech at America Fest, previously unified MAGA movement showing fractures:

H-1B Visa Debate: MAGA war on visas that bring talent and brains into country. Vivek Ramaswamy argued America worships culture of mediocrity. Anti-immigrant fervor swept over recognition that these visas bring innovation and wealth
US Bombing of Iran: Trump campaigned on no foreign wars, giving peace to world. Now involved in Iran, surrounding and blockading Venezuela, threatening regime change
Declaring Venezuela "narco-terrorist state" as pretense for war. Mark noted the contradiction: "The very things that he said he was against are the very things that he is now under the banner of MAGA claiming for MAGA."
Epstein Files: Trump wanted to release files, then suddenly withdrew. Congress now compelling release. Files heavily vetted and redacted by Department of Justice. Mark questioned: "Doesn't that make you more suspicious, Michael? ... they're making it seem as if there's a, there." Michael responded: "He was part of the pushing it him and Bonino and Cash Patel. And you know, now maybe there's nothing there, and that's the problem... Whether you support the bombing of Iran or not, the bottom line is Trump said he wouldn't get into stuff like that... Trump is just a grifter. He's a bullshitter... he's unconcerned with truth. It does not matter to him."
Charlie Kirk's Assassination: Kirk was coalition builder, disparate groups could unite under his umbrella
With him gone, no force unifying disparate elements
Groups now fighting each other, taking down Republican party
Tucker Carlson's Nick Fuentes Interview: Embrace of outspoken antisemite and Nazi worshiper into MAGA ranks
Movement being influenced by this association. JD Vance's consoling speech at America Fest: "let's forget our differences and unify". Mark characterized Vance's message: "He's in a sense saying, yeah, don't worry about the differences you may have with Nick Fuentes. He's part of a movement right now. And we need that. We need that momentum." Michael noted Vance's contradictions: "As he proceeds to say, you know, we're all Americans, and then in order to be an American, you have to accept that it's a Christian nation... And Democrats are, you know, they just want to trans your kids and they killed Charlie."

Scapegoating and Political Focus

Mark explained the political function: "When you have a scapegoat that, that foreign element that are the cause of all your problems that you can invest all your rage onto, they then, it allows them to expand their power. It's a tremendous focal point for people."

DHS Recording Law Enforcement

Department of Homeland Security suggesting recording or following law enforcement is obstruction of justice
Seven circuit courts ruled in favor of First Amendment and government transparency
Supreme Court punted on the issue

Mark's warning: "To get that response from a Department of Homeland Security official is frightening that it is obstruction to videotape an arrest in progress... Seven circuit courts have ruled in favor of the First Amendment, in favor of government transparency, which is you as a citizen have a right to make sure that these proceedings follow due process, that people are not being unduly detained. Or if they are, that you have a record of it... To claim that it is obstructing justice should send a chill down everybody's spine because you are empowering the police to live in darkness and to operate in darkness, and to be not subject to civilian oversight."

ICE Assaults Claims

Government claiming assaults on ICE officers up 1100%
Using this to justify masking agents and preventing recording

Michael's analysis: "If you suddenly sent me and all my friends, let's say you, which isn't many, but let's just say I've got 20 friends and you start sending us into neighborhoods with hostility, where we're viewed hostilely... all of a sudden the assaults on Michael Liebowitz and his friends are gonna go way up... When you start giving a greater and greater role to ICE, of course assaults on ICE are gonna go up... As I'll bet you if you were to look up ICE assaults on citizens, I'm gonna bet have gone way up as well."

Michael's core argument: "The people that want to stop them from being recorded are the ones obstructing justice. Not the people that are doing the recording... What they want is immunity to do Trump's bidding."

Surveillance State Hypocrisy

Jason's comment: "They film us nonstop."

Mark expanded: "The surveillance state films us a lot, and they wanna do more. Michael, I mean, they're shackling us with these true IDs, biometric stuff, so they can track our movements everywhere we go. They want to do a digital currency, of course, so they have control over our money and the flows of our money. I mean, that is a nanny state on crack. And that is a frightening thing because the state is the one that violates more rights than any criminal ever has in the history of man. I mean, they're the ones that we have to shackle and restrain, not human beings living their lives and or filming law enforcement doing their jobs."

Zohran Mamdani's Radical Inner Circle

New York mayor's transition team composed of radicals and antisemites
Mark thought legislature would be check on him, but city council and state legislature appear to be progressive allies
Transition team member formerly with FCC will find obscure laws to maximize Mamdani's power
Governor Hochul already cowed to him multiple times without getting anything in return

Mark's assessment: "She's a political pussy, to be honest with you and this guy. So this guy's gonna run roughshot over New York, I think."

Michael noted the broader trend: "The political momentum in this country is in the fringes now. It really is, and it's socialists and nationalists and it really sucks."

Mark clarified: "They're not really the fringe Michael, but they're the most consistent application of their collectivism."

Michael corrected himself: "They were the fringe because if they're taking over, then it's no longer the fringe. But these were fringe views not very long ago."

Mark concluded: "We're the fringe. We're on the fringe. Yeah. Even liberty and human sovereignty are the fringe for real now."

Critical Race Theory Origins

Discussion of when CRT began gaining prominence
Michael corrected misconception: didn't begin during Obama administration, started with critical legal theory in 1960s-70s
Originally a legal theory before branching out

Historical Context of Modern Racial Politics

Commenter argued modern battle started when people were told being white is inherently racist
Michael rejected this framing as starting at arbitrary point to suit preferred narrative

Michael challenged: "Does that justify calling all white people racist? No, but it's not as if Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton popped in out of nowhere. Right? That's not what happened. So let's not play the white victimhood card like the Jesse Jacksons did... You're starting at an arbitrary point that happens to suit the narrative that you prefer. That's the problem... That point that you're talking about stemmed from antecedent problems and you can't just ignore that."

Mark acknowledged the historical crimes: "The people who were able to game this, these grievances, these long stemming grievances, wound up taking the collectivist road because it paid. Al Sharpton's of the world. It paid them to say the things that they were saying to be a race baiter, to be a collectivist."

Martin Luther King's Individualist Vision Abandoned

Mark lamented: "They dumped Martin Luther King on the sidelines of history who made us think about individualism by saying you measure somebody by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin. And that's the world that he looked forward to, which was to look at people not for their racial identity, but for the identity of their character, for the values that they embraced. That's the proper way to look at things. But he's been kicked aside by the race hucksters and grifters who make a lot of money ginning up anger and rage."

Both Sides Race Grifting

Mark noted the symmetry: "That's happening on the white side too. They're making a lot of money ginning up white rage at being pinned for the historical problems that white people have actually committed against, for the crimes that they've actually committed against blacks and being held responsible for things they shouldn't be held responsible for. Granted, I shouldn't be held responsible for slavery. I had nothing to do with it. My family had nothing to do with it... Barack Obama's family had more to do with slavery than I did since he had slave owners on his side of the family. And I don't, mine were all in Europe, in Germany."

Demagogues vs. Conceptual Arguments

Mark concluded: "That kind of collective judgment and collective punishment is awful. But it's the world that we live in where demagogues rise to the top, they make the loudest noise and they appeal to people's base emotions. The anti-racist crowd like us make conceptual arguments and moral arguments for our position. And that stuff doesn't go over well in sound bites."

Notable Quotes

Michael on Government Coercion vs. Nature:"He was confusing metaphysical facts with choices humans made... Because of democracy, because I have the right to vote that it's not coercion. And I pointed out, well, if me and five of my friends are at a restaurant and we vote to that you're gonna pay for our dinner, that's democracy. He said, no, that's different."

Michael on Bullshit:"The hallmark of bullshit isn't necessarily lying. It's that the person that's doing it is unconcerned with the truth. They just don't care one way or the other."

Mark on Lobbying Context:"Yet somehow it's the Jewish lobby that spent half or a quarter of what these foreign lobbyists spent. That is the most influential lobby in Washington. Please, I mean, this stuff, you could Google this shit."

Mark on Detecting Antisemitism:"When you ignore the apartheid nature of the Arab states that literally banned Jewish life from their states, you cannot be a Jew and live in Jordan... When you ignore the apartheid nature of Gaza and instead place that on Israel, you are certainly representing a double standard and are probably antisemitic."

Michael on Trump:"Trump is just a grifter. He's a bullshitter... he's unconcerned with truth. It does not matter to him. Well, so he could say one thing today and a different thing next week, and it doesn't move him even a little bit. Getting called a liar, getting called out does not matter."

Michael on Recording Law Enforcement:"The people that want to stop them from being recorded are the ones obstructing justice. Not the people that are doing the recording."

Mark on Surveillance State:"The state is the one that violates more rights than any criminal ever has in the history of man. I mean, they're the ones that we have to shackle and restrain, not human beings living their lives and or filming law enforcement doing their jobs."

Mark on Liberty's Status:"We're the fringe. We're on the fringe. Yeah. Even liberty and human sovereignty are the fringe for real now."

Michael on Historical Context:"You're starting at an arbitrary point that happens to suit the narrative that you prefer. That's the problem."

Mark on Martin Luther King:"They dumped Martin Luther King on the sidelines of history who made us think about individualism by saying you measure somebody by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin."

Mark on Demagogues:"Demagogues rise to the top, they make the loudest noise and they appeal to people's base emotions. The anti-racist crowd like us make conceptual arguments and moral arguments for our position. And that stuff doesn't go over well in sound bites."

Key Themes

Truth vs. bullshit in political discourse
Deplatforming effectiveness and strategy
Antisemitism detection through double standards
MAGA coalition fracturing
Government surveillance and recording restrictions
Race grifting across political spectrum
Individualism vs. collectivism
Historical context and arbitrary starting points

Capitalist Thought of the Day

"What we're seeing around us today are tribes warring with each other, collectives who are angry at each other and using the political process to get leverage and power. And in the process, they're taking away your own moral agency and power from you to live your life the way you wanna live it. I say individualism, not collectivism, should be the ethics that a society goes by. Protecting individual rights, not spreading wealth and resources to a constituency, should be what the government does. If you think that sounds like a benevolent society to you, then embrace the capitalist ideal of individualism and individual rights and inviolable right to your own property in the disposal of your property. And that's what we think as capitalists leads to a truly benevolent society, where force is delegated to an agency that is strictly bound by due process. And you won't see the kind of hysterics in society that we're seeing today, particularly from the political class. You'll see a political class bound to you to serve you that has a fiduciary responsibility to you to protect and defend your rights." - Mark

Question of the Day

What is the best way to combat irrationality in the culture?