Obama and Trump on Immigration
Main Discussion Topics
Debunking "No Protests Under Obama" Myth
Michael opened by addressing a common claim circulating in social media that there were no protests or due process complaints during Obama's deportation policies. Through systematic research, he demonstrated this claim is historically inaccurate.
From American Immigration Council, August 1, 2014: "Over 100 Faith Leaders Are Arrested in Protest Against Record Deportations" occurred in front of the White House. The protesters stated: "We share the pain of mothers separated from their children. And fathers who have risked their lives for love of their families, it has to end. We have to stop separating families and breaking the hearts of children, torn from the arms of their parents."
Additional protests documented include a march in Chicago on April 17, 2014 where "Protestors March Against Obama, deportation Policies Chicago joined over 40 cities." Cronkite News reported on December 13, 2015 that "protestors marched to demand and end to mass deportations. 18 more protests took place the same week."
Michael emphasized: "So this claim, this idea that nobody cared about the deportations under Obama, or that nobody was complaining about lack of due process under Obama, that's just not true. You, you know, we can say whatever we want today based on poor memory, but the historical record shows something different."
Due Process Complaints Under Obama
Michael also debunked claims that no one complained about due process violations during the Obama administration:
The ACLU published an article on May 1, 2014 entitled "Speed Over Fairness Deportations under the Obama Administration" stating "the Obama administration has prioritized speed over fairness in the removal system, sacrificing individualized due process in the pursuit of record removal numbers."
The AFL-CIO published on January 6, 2016: "Obama administration's cracked down on immigration and ignores due process and creates communities filled with fear."
Michael acknowledged: "Now, was it to the same extent as we're seeing now under Trump, is it getting the same media coverage? I don't believe so, but there also might be some reasons why that's the case. Now, could it be said that the media bias plays a part? Sure. I have no problem with that."
Obama's Deportation Record and Evolving Approach
Michael provided detailed statistics on Obama's deportation policies:
Over Obama's entire eight-year administration: 5.3 million total deportations, consisting of 3.1 million formal removals (people sought out and detained) and 2.2 million turn backs at the border.
Critical evolution in policy: "In the fiscal year 2016, 85% of all removals were recent border crossings" and "of the 90% that remained, that were deported from the interior of the country, 90% were for serious crimes."
Michael cited the Migration Policy Institute: "over the course of the Obama administration, there was a pronounced shift in focus to the removal of recent border crossers and criminals rather than ordinary status violators apprehended in the US interior."
Between 2014-16, 40-45% of deportees had criminal convictions, with less than 20% having violent or potentially violent convictions. By fiscal year 2016, the focus had narrowed considerably toward criminals and recent border crossers.
Trump's Deportation Approach and Statistics
Michael contrasted Trump's current approach with detailed statistics:
As of 2025, 36% of deportees had prior criminal convictions (slightly less than Obama's final years), but only 7% were for violent crimes (compared to Obama's less than 20%).
Critically: "As of November 30th, 73.6% of detainees had no criminal conviction" and "as of January 7th, it's roughly the same."
Michael observed: "Whereas over the course of the Obama administration, we can see that the numbers actually went from a more generalized approach to more specific approach. Whereas Trump, it's getting more and more toward those that are, you know, without criminal convictions, especially without violent convictions."
Trump's Inflammatory Rhetoric About Immigrants
Michael documented Trump's pattern of inflammatory statements about immigrants:
"Why is it we only take people from shithole countries? We always take people from Somalia" - notably targeting Minnesota's large Somali population.
"Most of them are on welfare... from failed nations or from prisons, mental institutions, gangs, or drug cartels" - a claim Michael noted is inaccurate.
"They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime, they're rapists" - Trump's statement about Mexican immigrants.
The false claim about Haitian immigrants: "They're eating the cats and the dogs of the people that live there."
Michael emphasized: "The rhetoric about who immigrants are is a lie... These are very derogatory statements about immigrants, and it's also raising the temperature. It's raising the temperature both among Trump supporters and Trump detractors."
Trump's Policy Escalations
Michael outlined several policy escalations beyond Obama's approach:
Trump reclassified cartels as terrorist organizations, deployed the National Guard, discussed implementing the Insurrection Act, and referenced the Alien Sedition Act. "He's talked about putting the military on American streets."
Travel bans: Trump "implemented travel bans... against Muslim countries."
DACA: Trump "ended the DACA program, deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals" which Obama had implemented.
Refugee admissions: Trump "reduced refugee admissions to his historic lows."
El Salvador prison: "Sending people to this El Salvadorian prison. Some of them were mistakenly sent there, but many of 'em weren't criminals at all. He's just sending them being deported to this place without due process."
Operation Metro Surge and Minnesota
Michael detailed the unprecedented scale of current operations:
"According to the DHS, this is the largest immigration operation ever carried out" - Operation Metro Surge deployed 2,000 agents to Minneapolis-St. Paul.
Context of Minnesota targeting: "When you deploy this amount of agents to cities, they're wearing masks... many times in unmarked vehicles, it's more than ever. And you do that within the context of bad mouthing Somalians in particular, who are in Minnesota."
Legal constraints in Minnesota: "The law by law... The law limits the ability of local law enforcement to cooperate with ice when it comes to Ice holdings of people in jail. So there's actually laws in Minnesota that prohibit them from helping out in the way that the Trump administration wants them to."
Historical context: "Not until I wanna say 2002, there was this new law passed that even allowed the local governments to assist federal law enforcement. So for most of the country's history, local law enforcement could not assist federal agents."
Response to Minnesota Shootings
Michael documented the administration's immediate response to two fatal shootings in Minnesota, noting the lack of investigation before public statements:
Regarding Renee Goode, Kristi Noem stated: "the ice agent fired defensive shots after good attempted to run him over. No investigation, nothing. That's what she says."
Regarding Alex Preti, Noem claimed: "he approached US border patrol officers with a nine millimeter semi-automatic handgun" when in fact "he had a holstered nine millimeter handgun. He didn't approach them with it."
Stephen Miller "called Preti an assassin" and JD Vance "amplified" social media claims while stating "the ice agent's life was in danger."
Caroline Levitt stated "without any evidence, the deadly incident that took place in Minnesota occurred as a result of a larger, sinister left-wing movement that is spread across the country."
Trump himself stated that Goode "violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ice officer" which Michael noted: "We all know that's not true. Even if you say the shooting was justified, it's simply not true that she ran him over."
Michael emphasized the pattern: "When you have an administration that engages in this type of rhetoric, both after those two shootings, and before... Can you understand that? It's more than just he's not getting cooperation from local officials that leads to this stuff."
Discussion With Persephone on Trump
Persephone, joining from South Africa, offered an international perspective on Trump:
"He is a clown. He's a narcissist. He's a bad businessman. He's a bad person. He's a moron. People think that he's playing 4D chess when he is just like a pigeon shitting on a chessboard."
On Trump's decision-making: "Every move he makes is stupid. He sometimes stumbles into things that like could seem clever to a person who doesn't pay much attention... but it's all accidental. I think anything that he does that has good effects is completely accidental on his part. He operates completely by whim and by what makes him feel good."
On Trump's following: "If I was on a game show and I had to say one nice thing or like one positive thing about Trump, it would be that he's weirdly good at creating like rabid fandom in people."
She referenced Trump's messianic imagery: "People were like making these memes of like Trump and Jesus together and they were sort of like hailing him as the second coming... how divorced from reality do you have to be?"
Tribalism and Constitutional Principles
The discussion addressed audience member Akira Felix's comment about liking Trump because "he triggered the left."
Persephone responded: "I don't think that you should like someone because he pissed off your enemies... it's still tribalism. Like at its core it might, you might like paint it as something else, but that's what it is. I think I enjoy this because it fucked off someone I don't like."
Michael connected this to The Fountainhead: "It reminds me kind of what of of Gail Winan... He wanted to have power over other people."
The conversation also addressed Gary Menard's point:
"Escalation of violence and opposition works in the authoritarians favor, and Trump Inner Circle knows it."
Michael emphasized: "You can't just make people think" but argued for returning to founding principles: "Our founding principles, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution."
Context Over Individual Data Points
Michael addressed the tendency to isolate specific facts without broader context:
"You can't just say, well, you know, Obama got more help from the locals, whereas Trump is not getting help from the locals. Or... ICE wasn't being attacked the way they were under Obama. Like they are under Trump. Those statements are true, but they're out of a context. They're ripped from a context that explains so much more."
Persephone reinforced this conceptual approach: "One of the reasons that people, people want a clean solution, right? They want a simple answer because that is what makes them feel comfortable. They wanna say, well, if we just did this, then all of our problems would be solved."
Notable Quotes
Michael on Historical Accuracy: "We can say whatever we want today based on poor memory, but the historical record shows something different."
Michael on Trump's Rhetoric: "The rhetoric about who immigrants are is a lie... These are very derogatory statements about immigrants, and it's also raising the temperature both among Trump supporters and Trump detractors."
Michael on Context: "You can't just say, well, you know, Obama got more help from the locals, whereas Trump is not getting help from the locals... Those statements are true, but they're out of a context. They're ripped from a context that explains so much more."
Persephone on Trump: "He is a clown. He's a narcissist. He's a bad businessman. He's a bad person. He's a moron. People think that he's playing four d chess when he is just like a pigeon shitting on a chessboard."
Persephone on Tribalism: "I don't think that you should like someone because he pissed off your enemies... it's still tribalism. Like at its core it might, you might like paint it as something else, but that's what it is."
Michael on Presidential Criticism: "Trump is the person in office. He's the person that is repeatedly lying. He's the one that has established a virtual cult around him of people who believe and spread his lies. That is my concern right now."
Persephone on Solutions: "People want a clean solution, right? They want a simple answer because that is what makes them feel comfortable. They wanna say, well, if we just did this, then all of our problems would be solved. And it's uncomfortable to sit with the idea that in a situation like America's in right now, there is no simple solution."
Michael on Anti-Intellectualism: "There's no conceptualization, there's no attempt at rational thought. There's no attempt at gaining evidence... Trump will just say anything if he thinks it's going to benefit him."
Referenced Articles/Sources
Protests During Obama Administration:
American Immigration Council, August 1, 2014: "Over 100 Faith Leaders Are Arrested in Protest Against Record Deportations"
ABC 24-7 Live, April 17, 2014: "Protestors March Against Obama, deportation Policies Chicago joined over 40 cities"
Cronkite News, December 13, 2015: Protests demanding end to mass deportations
Due Process Concerns Under Obama:
ACLU, May 1, 2014: "Speed Over Fairness Deportations under the Obama Administration"
AFL-CIO, January 6, 2016: Article on due process violations
Policy Analysis:
Migration Policy Institute: Statistics and analysis of deportation trends
Department of Homeland Security: Information on Operation Metro Surge
Book/Essay Recommendations
"On Bullshit" by Harry Frankfurt
Essay referenced by Michael on the nature of bullshit versus lying
Distinguishes between intentional deception and indifference to truth
"The Science of Detecting Bullshit" (book)
Recently read by Michael
Related to identifying false claims and propaganda
Key Themes
Historical accuracy versus convenient narratives
Evolution of deportation policy from Obama to Trump
Role of inflammatory rhetoric in escalating tensions
Constitutional rights applying regardless of immigration status
Tribalism versus principled analysis
Context and conceptual thinking over isolated data points
Anti-intellectualism in political discourse
Federal-state tensions in immigration enforcement
Capitalist Thought of the Day
"The concept of individual rights is something that arises because of human nature, because of who we are as conceptual moral beings who have requirements if we are to act in ways that are going to further our own lives. This concept of individual rights applies to everybody with an intact brain that has reached the age of maturity. It doesn't stop at some border that's been drawn on a map. It doesn't end because of somebody's ethnicity, religion, or race. It applies to each of us. If we are going to be consistent advocates of capitalism, we have to be consistent advocates of individual rights. And if we are going to be consistent advocates of individual rights, we have to acknowledge that the people that are coming to this country have them too, and we have no right to initiate force against them. So let us embrace the principles upon which this country was founded as they've been expanded upon and improved by Ayn Rand. Let's do so loudly. Let's do so proudly and let's do so consistently." - Michael